Venus,
Thanks for the tip. It was easy to locate the book at the Archive site and after downloading it I naturally had my computer convert the file into Word format. Should be interesting.
Doug
Doug Mason
JoinedPosts by Doug Mason
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9
The Pastorals
by Doug Mason inall will be very familiar with:.
"all scripture is inspired by god and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness" (2 timothy 3:16, nrsv).
"we wait for the blessed hope and the manifestation of the glory of our great god and savior, jesus christ.
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9
The Pastorals
by Doug Mason inall will be very familiar with:.
"all scripture is inspired by god and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness" (2 timothy 3:16, nrsv).
"we wait for the blessed hope and the manifestation of the glory of our great god and savior, jesus christ.
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Doug Mason
doubtfull,
Also there was no agreed canon (agreed list of books) of Hebrew Scriptures by that time. The thought of creating a formal list was largely initiated by the action of the Christians because they used the codex format, in contrast to the Jews, who had kept their writings as individual scrolls. The maximum length of a Hebrew book was determined by the maximum possible length of a scroll - hence the need to divide the books of Kings and of Chronicles.
All Christians have never completely agreed on which books should make up the Bible. Consider the Orthodox, Ethiopian and the Roman Catholic canons.
And it is absolutely impossible to know what was initially written. There are decades, even centuries, of silence during which changes were being made. If you wanted to read a scholarly criticism of texts such as the Masoretic, read "Textual Criticism Of The Hebrew Bible" by the highly acclaimed scholar Emanuel Tov.
And the NT writings make regular use of writings such as 1 Enoch. And the 4th century codices include writings such as Barnabas.
Doug
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9
The Pastorals
by Doug Mason inall will be very familiar with:.
"all scripture is inspired by god and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness" (2 timothy 3:16, nrsv).
"we wait for the blessed hope and the manifestation of the glory of our great god and savior, jesus christ.
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Doug Mason
Since writing the above, I have located a book that appears to be helpful with my interest in the soteriology of the Book of Revelation:
"Soteriology as Motivation in the Apocalypse of John" by Alexander Stewart.
The description of the book is:
John did not write the Apocalypse in order to provide a detailed time-table of events that would unfold thousands of years in the future. Instead, John wrote to affect and move his hearers at the end of the first century-to motivate them to reject idolatrous compromise with the surrounding cultural and political institutions and overcome through repentance, worship, witness, perseverance, and obedience. How does the Apocalypse of John accomplish this motivation and persuade its hearers to adopt a course of action that would put their present lives, income, and security in jeopardy? This monograph employs Stephen Toulmin's model of argumentation analysis to study John's explicit and implicit motivational argumentation and to argue that the two primary grounds for John's argumentation are soteriological. Hearers are motivated positively by the promise of future salvation and negatively by warnings of future judgment. In addition to this main claim, this monograph will (1) argue that the Apocalypse of John is a thoroughly rhetorical text; (2) highlight the centrality of logos, or logical argumentation, in John's argumentation; (3) demonstrate the general applicability of Toulmin's model of argumentation analysis to biblical texts; (4) argue that one's systematic theology of motivation or salvation must be grounded in a comprehensive analysis of the actual motivational argumentation within a text; and (5) explore some of the theological questions raised by the use of soteriology as motivation.
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Has anyone read the book?
Is there a site where I might be able to find any other books that make reference to the book?
Given that it has to come from USA, I do not expect it to arrive before Xmas.
Doug
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9
The Pastorals
by Doug Mason inall will be very familiar with:.
"all scripture is inspired by god and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness" (2 timothy 3:16, nrsv).
"we wait for the blessed hope and the manifestation of the glory of our great god and savior, jesus christ.
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Doug Mason
All will be very familiar with:
"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16, NRSV)
"We wait for the blessed hope and the manifestation of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.: (Titus 2:13, NRSV)
"Let a woman learn in silence with full submission. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent." (1 Timothy 2:11-12, NRSV}
These come from the letters (epistles) known collectively as "The Pastoral Epistles".
In my relentless investigation into the history of the revolutions in teachings about "salvation", I have now drafted a Chapter on the attitude of the Pastorals. While my Chapter does not examine these statements in great depth, it shows that The Pastorals were composed at the end of the first century or at the start of the second century.
Paul died about 64 CE and the attitudes in The Pastorals, while similar is some way to Paul's, they are not identical with him The pastorals thus demonstrate changes taking place during the time after Paul, as well as highlighting problems that the author of The Pastorals was encountering, and wished to confront. He clearly needed to write these things because he did not agree with views that other Christians were holding to.
My Draft chapter is available at:
http://www.jwstudies.com/Pastorals__soteriology.pdf
On the first page, you will see the reason I am providing this Chapter in its Draft stage.
I have incorporated the Chapter into my ongoing Draft Study at:
http://www.jwstudies.com/Revolutions_in_Salvation__Draft_.pdf
This is growing beyond my initial expectations, but in hindsight, I am not surprised. And I have other areas I still want to investigate.
Given the size that the Study is growing to, ultimately I will provide an appropriate Introductory Chapter. There is a quasi-Index at the rear.
Next I want to see if it is possible to extract a soteriology of the Book of Revelation, or at least the soteriology of its author. Ideas are most welcome, as well as letting me know of sources I should pursue. I am not looking for fulfillments of predictions. I want to focus on soteriology, while touching on any relevant Christology.
For example, Jesus spews people out who are lukewarm -- but I am not concerned at canvassing alternative prophetic fulfillments. People have to "keep the Commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus" -- but I am not interested in speculative fulfilment(s).
Doug
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44
Please explain the Watchtower's "Ransom" for me
by Doug Mason inaccording to the watchtower:.
who received the ransom payment?.
why did the ransomer need to be paid?.
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Doug Mason
Wow! What a most interesting set of responses! Thank you. Broadly speaking, these do not paint Jehovah in a good light.
Your responses lead me to these thoughts:
1. The Watchtower's explanation, as shown by you, is predicated on the myth that there was a real Adam and that the Genesis Creation myths are literal records. (Search a Bible for the word "Adam" to see how few times it appears, when, and in what contexts.)
2. Do some people hold onto the idea that there was a literal Eden - Adam - Eve - Snake - creation 6000 years ago only because it gives sense to "Jesus died for me"? (If the Creation stories are just myths, then why did Jesus have to be killed and resurrected?)
3. What is it that enables a myth, a superstition, to exert such a hold on the human mind? How can irrationality be so effective?
4, Paul (in his genuine letters) does not focus his soteriology solely on Jesus' death but he also included the resurrection. Why should anyone accept Paul's opinion?
Doug
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44
Please explain the Watchtower's "Ransom" for me
by Doug Mason inaccording to the watchtower:.
who received the ransom payment?.
why did the ransomer need to be paid?.
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Doug Mason
According to the Watchtower:
Who received the Ransom payment?
Why did the Ransomer need to be paid?
Who was Jesus sacrificed to?
Who was being held captive and by whom?
Whom did the Ransomer release?
Doug
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Is it really possible to disprove the Watchtower?
by Coded Logic indear brothers and sisters,.
considering the end is so near at hand we thought it important for to reiterate that it's absolutely impossible to prove god's "one true organisation" wrong.
there is nothing on heaven or earth that could ever be shown to be false or incorrect in our entire .
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Doug Mason
JWs listen to the Organisation because of WHO and WHAT it claims to be, regardless of whatever it says.
Or perhaps they follow the Organisation because they know the personal cost associated with being disfellowshiped.
The WTS rips families apart, causes children to bleed to death, and the way they play with people's minds it causes untold mental instabilities, where people are forced to say and believe things they do not genuinely agree with, only to find that the Organisation changes its mind and JWs now find that the thoughts they had to suppress had now become True. Is there anything that is True? If so, how will a JW ever know?
My bigger question is: What is it in people that makes them believe a myth?
Doug
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17
Is the husband the head of his wife?
by Doug Mason inhow do we explain the marital role with what paul said in 1 cor.
“but i want you to realize that the head of every man is christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of christ is god.” (niv).
read a few chapters earlier at 1 corinthians 7 to see what paul does say about the relationships between husband and wife.
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Doug Mason
Apologies. I had not made my thoughts totally clear.
Firstly, I wanted to show that Paul's attitude towards women was not misogynistic. I attempted that by referring to what Paul wrote a few chapters prior as well as in Galatians (a letter that is genuinely by Paul).
I then looked at the structure of the context of 1 Cor. 11:2-16 to demonstrate that someone had later inserted it within Paul's discourse.
Following that, I suggested that the inserted sentiments reflected the thoughts expressed in the Pastoral Epistles (Timothy and Titus). These particular Epistles were written at the end of the first century or early in the second century, about 50 years after Paul's death.
The Pastoral Epistles, and hence 1 Corinthians 11:2-6, thus reflect the evolutionary stage of the Jesus-community and they do not reflect what Paul said, thought or wrote. From what I have read, I understand that the term Christianity and probably "Christian" first occurred at the time of the Pastoral Epistles, and they speak of things that Paul had no interest in -- formal structure.
If you think that the Watchtower Society changes Scripture, a little research will show that they are rank amateurs at the task. The first substantive New Testament was developed 300 years after Paul's time (the earliest NT writer) and the material underwent much revision during that period and it continued to be revised afterwards.
There is no agreed Canon nor any agreed text.
Doug
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17
Is the husband the head of his wife?
by Doug Mason inhow do we explain the marital role with what paul said in 1 cor.
“but i want you to realize that the head of every man is christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of christ is god.” (niv).
read a few chapters earlier at 1 corinthians 7 to see what paul does say about the relationships between husband and wife.
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Doug Mason
How do we explain the marital role with what Paul said in 1 Cor. 11: 3?
“But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.” (NIV)
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Read a few chapters earlier at 1 Corinthians 7 to see what Paul does say about the relationships between husband and wife. Read a few translations.
Now read Galatians 3:25-28: “Now that faith has come, we are no longer subject to a disciplinarian, for in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith. As many of you as were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus.” (NRSV)
Clearly the sentiment expressed at 1 Corinthians 11:3 is not compatible with the above statements by Paul.
Let's look at the immediate context of this verse: In the previous Chapter (1 Corinthians 10) Paul entered into a multi-faceted discussion about eating and drinking, about having meals. Then at 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 this discussion about husbands, wives, their head coverings and hair length follows. Suddenly at verse 17 the text continues the discussion about food, drink, and meals.
This strongly indicates that later someone inserted 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 into Paul's writings. Inasmuch as the sentiments being expressed are similar to the attitudes at the Pastorals (Timothy and Titus), this suggests that it happened at that time, the end of the first century, 40 years after Paul's death.
In addition, when I look at the flow of the reasoning, 1 Corinthians 11:3 stands out like a sore thumb -- it is not part of any natural, rational flow. How many people follow the instructions about hair and head covering? Remember, there were no "churches" then (small groups met in people's houses or shops). In any case, 1 Corinthians 11 says that any time a woman prays, she must cover her head. Do wives do this every time they pray at home?
The rationale used by the writer of 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 is that there is a hierarchy set by Adam having been created before Eve. I do not believe the Adam / Eve / Eden / Satan-snake story, so the analogy does not exist for me
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[1 Corinthians 11, NRSV]
ARGUMENT CONCERNING HAIRSTYLES
2 I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions just as I handed them on to you. 3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the husband is the head of his wife, and God is the head of Christ.
4 Any man who prays or prophesies with something on his head disgraces his head, 5 but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled disgraces her head — it is one and the same thing as having her head shaved.
6 For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or to be shaved, she should wear a veil.
7 For a man ought not to have his head veiled, since he is the image and reflection of God; but woman is the reflection of man. 8 Indeed, man was not made from woman, but woman from man. 9 Neither was man created for the sake of woman, but woman for the sake of man. 10 For this reason a woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.
11 Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man or man independent of woman. 12 For just as woman came from man, so man comes through woman; but all things come from God.
13 Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head unveiled?
14 Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair, it is degrading to him, 15 but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering.
16 But if anyone is disposed to be contentious — we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God.
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History of "salvation"
by Doug Mason inslowly, ever so slowly, i continue to investigate the history of the judaeo/christian ideas of "salvation" (soteriology).
i have been working on my study for more than a year and it will take me a few more months to prepare the drafts of the remaining chapters.. my investigations have shown me that people have held -- and continue to hold -- a range of expectations, explanations, and opinions concerning a future existence and how that was provided, how it will be attained, and what will be experienced.
this research has confirmed for me that religion is supernatural superstition exploited by a few in order to manipulate and manage the masses.
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Doug Mason
scratchme,
The benefit I see -- for those who need it -- is that a Church provides them with a community of like-minded people. I guess I make it sound banal, but we see any number of communities of people who have similar convictions, and in this instance the commonality lies with myths and the supernatural.
I suspect that arguing against the belief systems of other myth-followers enables one to have a sense of protecting one's local community and of identifying with it. Although arguing against conflicting belief systems is a tool exploited by religious leaders to construct a fence around their sheep (Trinity, etc.).
While conducting this Study, I have been struck by the range of ideas and explanations regarding "salvation", to the point where I asked myself: "Why do people listen to and heed the opinions of religious leaders/voices?" Paul had his opinion (after supposedly speaking with the spirit of an executed person) but why should his ideas be taken as absolute?
My background had been within Christianity and that is the limit of my personal experience. There is such a vast tapestry for enquiry, and looking at these has helped me shape my relationship with current events. I have no real knowledge of belief systems outside the Judaeo/Christian stream.
I see Christianity as an element of Judaism. The Christian Bible is comprised of Jewish writings, apart from probably Luke, Acts, Hebrews and 2 Peter -- I am open to thoughts on whether there are other non-Jewish writings in any of the Christian Bibles. What about the Didache, Shepherd of Hermas, Barnabas and Thomas - were they Jewish in origin? Likely not.
Doug